Different Perspectives & Cinematic Brushstrokes with a Feature Film Editor: Debra Neil-Fisher

Embark on a captivating journey with Hollywood feature film editor and director, Debra Neil-Fisher, as she opens up about her career on the "Everyday Masters" podcast. Debra reflects on her unique path, emphasizing natural talents honed through daily practice and perpetual learning.

Sterling & Diamond explore Debra's extensive credits, including her work on blockbuster films like "Fried Green Tomatoes," the Austin Powers series, and Fifty Shades movies. They delve into the nuanced nature of professional mastery and the intricacies of Debra's trajectory, navigating nepotism, and transitioning from assistant editor to feature film editor.

Discover Debra's creative process, insights into editing diverse projects, and her foray into directing. Uncover the underappreciated role of editors in filmmaking, and explore universal applications of Debra's creative perspective, emphasizing the importance of diverse viewpoints, simplicity, and focus in achieving success.

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Transcript

Debra: 0:00

I always say things have to earn their way in. If you took everything out and decided only the crucial things could come in or be part of what you're working on, I often start with the scene that way, especially if something's already been cut. I start with this idea of what could I just keep the simplest form what has to be there?

Maury: 0:17

I love that.

Song: 0:19

Welcome to Everyday Masters, the show where we seek to understand mastery. People who have it, people who try for it, people who struggle with it, and how we all manifest it in our own lives. Welcome to Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday masters, everyday masters.

Craig: 0:44

Hey everybody welcome to this episode of Everyday Masters. My name is Craig Diamond.

Maury: 0:49

What's up Craig? I'm Maury Sterling. And we're really glad you're joining us this week on our show.

Craig: 0:55

This week we are really excited! She is a big time Hollywood movie editor and we are talking about big feature films all of the Hangover films and all of the 50 Shades films, and a zillion films. It's really, really interesting'cause as I approached her, Maury. She was pretty reluctant. She was like, no, same old thing that we're hearing with so many people. She's like, I just don't, I, there's so many people that are better than me. And I was just blown away by the fact that at this, resume and the films that this guest has worked on, I was like, wow I cannot believe you could do what you do for that long. Get recognized, be a part of such successes and still, I'm not exactly sure. I I, I'm the person you need to be talking to.

Maury: 1:41

Right. Yeah. Now we've run a lot with people. That's sort of the attitude, and I mean, I certainly relate to it. I and I, I don't know, maybe It'd be weird to maybe talk to the person who's like, yes, I am the king, but we'll see. I don't know.

Craig: 1:53

Real quick, on a personal level what, what are you working on these days with regard to mastery? Where's your head at?

Maury: 1:58

Where is my head? This week was a lot about sort of how I look at my life that, what's the lens I'm using this week, which is a recurring theme all the time thinking about that. But this week it felt very clear that if I looked at my life through the lens of what am I doing today? You know, the the old adage of if I'm just staying in the process and staying out of results. I'm like, wow. All right. Cool. I feel great about what I'm trying to do each day and where I'm applying my energy and how I'm to, how I'm trying to be in my relationships, how I'm trying to be as a dad, how I'm treat, my body and health, how I'm trying to treat work. As soon as I started spinning off and do where I am in my own gradation of success versus failure or moving the needle, not moving the needle. All the ways I think about things, it started getting kind of crappy pretty quickly. And that was an, a really interesting distinction to kind of see the difference between the two. What about you?

Craig: 2:47

Mine was kind of a layup in the sense that know, we're talking to Debra Neil-Fisher, and she's an editor. I spent a lot of time editing this podcast. And so there was kind of an art imitating life kind of, what is an editor, you know, an editor is, is trying to tell stories. You know, An editor trying to get rid of not needed. An editor is trying to take an audience on a bit of a journey, interesting to edit the thing that has a master editor in it, I guess is what I would say, which is kind of fun to consider. And then kind of feeling like, you know, Maury I, get feedback from the guests on the show that, that they really enjoy it. And so, I do think you and I are gaining a bit of mastery in making for a welcoming environment. So here we have this person that's a master in editing feature films, working with these A-list directors and producers and stuff. And you and I are able to have this like really friendly, nice conversation, which frankly I think she, some people are kind of nervous to do it and I think you and I are good at creating an environment where people wanna be a part of this.

Maury: 3:53

And I like that too.'cause that actually confirms kind of what I was thinking about. this week, let's stick with that theme of which story are you telling? You know, are you, are you telling the tragedy? Are you telling the, not even optimistic, just sort of the practicality one. Like, which story are you telling anyways?

Craig: 4:06

Alright, so without further ado, let's cut right to it. You get what I did right there. See how I did that Let's cut right to the guest this week. Debra Neil-Fisher.

Debra: 4:21

Hi, nice to see you guys.

Maury: 4:23

Thanks for

Debra: 4:23

I'm so happy that you invited me. The truth is I really was kind of nervous about being invited onto a podcast. I haven't done one before, so I'm a little, uh, a little worried, you know, a little nervous.

Craig: 4:34

Well, don't, don't worry. And that actually segues into a first question we have. So when you were asked to be on a podcast called Everyday Masters, was that experience like for you?

Debra: 4:45

First I said, why me? Of course, I was like, I'm not sure what I have mastery in. And then um, when I really examined it, I thought well, I do get paid well to do something. So there I am, probably a master of something. But then I went to the everyday part of it and went well, let's see, what do I do every day that's Mastery? Or is it just an everyday average master? I'm like, where's the everyday come in? Just because that's part of your, your title. And then I thought well, I am a master probably almost every day, but then I'm also learning every day. So you know, is mastery, continuing to learn. Is that part of the mastery?

Craig: 5:23

Okay so let me kick things off here, because, by the way, you are not alone in that sentiment. And, it's one of the things, Maury, I said to Debra when we had a chat before the podcast is, it probably means you're perfect for the podcast. What we're starting to realize is that, Mastery is a very complicated word and like Craig looking at Debra and looking at what you've accomplished that I'm about to talk about, it seems obvious from the outside, of course you would be a master. You've spent decades being an editor and now a director, but specifically decades editing some blockbuster feature films, right?

Debra: 6:00

Right.

Craig: 6:01

To the outside of that world, to a guy like Craig, of course it would seem obvious that this is a person with mastery, and then what is fascinating is your first thought is what could I possibly be a master in? That is a common experience that, we are hearing as we do these interviews.

Debra: 6:19

I guess maybe what I think is, it's something that comes natural to you and you, you think less of that, it's not that big of a deal to you, and that's probably what I think mastery is, is something that comes natural to you that you've, practiced and practiced and gotten better at you spent more, you spent time at doing it. It seems like that to me would be what Mastery is.

Maury: 6:39

That's an interesting point though that, but that it started with something that you are good at. And because of that if somebody says, Hey, you're good at, you don't hear the compliment as much because it's like, well, yeah, I just do that thing. That's easy me. For me, so I don't hear, extra on it.

Debra: 6:53

You take it for granted that you can do that thing, but not everyone can. It's something that not everybody can do, and you have different traits than I do, and, and we each have something we can master.

Craig: 7:03

Okay, but that's all fine and dandy, folks, and our friend Debra here, you might think that Debra is an accountant, no knock on accountants out there, or that she sells life insurance at a life insurance seminar, but guess what? She doesn't. Debra Neil-Fisher has been a Hollywood feature film editor for decades. And, Maury's, Craig, don't read all of her credits." but I do want to say, Debra, how many features like 35, 40 features?

Debra: 7:32

Yeah, at least. Those are just the ones that show up on IMDB. I have lists of others that I've worked on.

Maury: 7:37

Wow.

Craig: 7:37

Right, but I need to say movies like Fried Green Tomatoes, all the Austin Powers movies, Saving Silverman, Without a Paddle, the Hangover series, a lot of the comedies, all the Fifty Shades. There are women out there shuddering right now because of Debra Neil-Fisher. All the Fifty Shades movies, right?

Debra: 7:56

Yeah.

Craig: 7:56

And a ton, ton more, and then you've become a director. To us, you. know, to me, this sounds really, really exciting. And I also gotta say, I'm happy to introduce you to my friend Maury. Who's been an actor for 30 years, right? Who's been in a bunch of movies. And it's interesting to sit here like in this like movie sandwich, having no place, me, like two sides of making a movie or two sides of this content. So I just want to say we're thrilled that you're here, Debra. Could you first talk to us about how you got started? How did you get into and create this incredible career?

Debra: 8:29

Just to begin with, as a kid, I was always a painter and always working in the art, in arts and visual style more than verbal. I'm not a that verbal of a person, so I'm not a writer director. I'm an, editor, director. Which means I take other people's contents, other people's words and, and put them either visually or rearrange them, whatever. But I was always visual as a kid. And then I started, I took up photography in high school and started shooting photographs and photojournalism and thought that I wanted to do that as my profession. But then when I um, applied to schools, I got into USC Cinema School and said, oh if I got into that school, I'm gonna go ahead and try studying cinema and, and really follow through with that, so once I went through cinema school at USC, I got out and I was not sure whether I would be in camera department because I loved camera or whether I would be in editing or where I would end up, but camera, was a bit hard. Back then, it was real heavy film cameras with film to load and carry boxes, and I'm not that big of a person. So I thought, if you really wanna be in camera, you're gonna have to huff it and push hard to do that'cause it's just a physical job. And I decided that I might start an editorial, but also editing is one of the main parts of storytelling and filmmaking. You write the story, you shoot the story, and then you edit the story. And those are all three really important parts of the storytelling process. And so once I got into editorial, I realized that I was a crucial part of the filmmaking. And it was really a great place for me specifically to land in. And then the talents that were natural to me, which was, I've always been somebody who's been able to rearrange and rethink things. And that's the natural sort of talent that sort of lends itself well to editorial and material and that exists and sort of redoing it or figuring another way through it or just reordering it. And that out to be the key to my success as an editor.

Craig: 10:18

How'd you get your start? come out of USC. I mean, and, you're a woman, does that play in? Was that more difficult?

Debra: 10:25

Yeah. Back in the day it was a little bit harder to be a woman in the industry. Although, historically there are a lot of female editors. Not a lot, in general there were more editors than there were in other departments. But um, when I first got started, it's hard to get started in the business, but I'm from LA and my father was a dentist in the Valley and he had a lot of patients that were in the industry. I worked for him anyways, during the summer, so when I would go to his office and worked after I got out of college. He would say, this is my daughter. She, She went to USC, she wants to be a filmmaker. And whoever was in and because he's dentist and he is, got them held hostage. And so it did meet quite a few people that way. Eventually I didn't get my first job that way. And the first job was through a friend of mine who said uh, I, I know, a producer coming to town. He needs somebody on a set to help out a PA. And I said, I'd do it. So through that, I got my first job was an assistant at a commercial editing company and I spent a year at that company and learned a lot there. But basically when I was meeting people through my dad at the chair, one of his friends and one of his patients was the head of post-production at Fox Studios. And so eventually that guy got me into the union and got me started in, in, editing. Rather than non-union, which was a big deal. It's, it's really hard to get in, not just this business, but in to get into the union and all that. back then, it was really hard to get into the union. They had seniority lists and roster lists and all that stuff. So it was very difficult to get in. So it nepotism. Basically that's really what it was. But that's why when I meet young filmmakers and young people starting out, I'm always like whoever, you know, even if it's just an acquaintance, keep at them and call them you know, your contact with them is what they remember and that's all you really have. So keep at it if you're interested in trying to get a job in the business,'cause it's all about people really. So, I started at that commercial company And I knew that I wanted to be an editor, but I started out, you started as an assistant, you know, so I was cutting sound effects. And I was cutting, helping cut the editor's work on things and cutting commercials and all that. Then I started cutting, promo reels and a little bit longer format stuff.'cause I knew I really wanted to end up in dramatic format, but I didn't, couldn't start there. So I just started working towards that and eventually I got a job cutting a promo for two producers and they said to me um, we're gonna cut our next movie on video instead of film. And we, and we see that you can cut on video. And I said, yeah, I just learned these quarter inch decks. I can control them. We figured out how to use'em. It was very rudimentary. And they said we want somebody to edit our film that way cause we see it's the technology of the future. And so I said, okay, I'd love to do that. And they go, well you have to get the job first. And I said, oh, okay. So they introduced me to the director.'cause the director hires the editor on the on the pictures, this person they're gonna work closest with. So when I was going to meet this gentleman, whose name was Gil Cates, he was head of the DGA at one point. And so he knew everyone I knew. So I had all these directors and people I knew call him and say that I was worth meeting and that I, he should hire me. So the minute I walked in the door, he goes, you got the job. If you tell people to quit calling me.

Craig: 13:24

Nice, good.

Debra: 13:25

He said, no, seriously, sit down. I'm gonna ask you one question. Just one question. If you can answer it correctly, you have the job. And I said, okay. He said, while we're shooting, when the producers come to you and say, Hey Deb, can you show us some of the footage that you know cut together that we're working on? What are you gonna say to them? I'm not showing'em anything until you say it's okay. And he goes, okay, you got the job confidence thing that the director really should be and is in charge of his film until he's ready to show the, producers. But if you don't know that protocol, It'd be a problem. And plus they had introduced me to him, so they were worried about it. They were nervous. He was nervous that I would be in cahoots with the producers. And it's always about those allegiances that happen on the set for the, for the director and for the crew. Who Right?

Maury: 14:10

Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Craig: 14:12

When you look at this, this body of work and, and you're telling this story looking back, was there a moment along the way where, you were pinching yourself, maybe sitting with a director, maybe it was being a part of your first hit.

Debra: 14:27

I, I, think it's more about like really doing something well, like I was working then. Then I went on to work with Jon Avnet and Jordan Kerner for quite a few films, and Jon had directed a film that was about the Watts Riots before the Watts Riots happened again. He was doing a historical picture about the Watts Riots and I was cutting this film and Jon said to me, Just take the audio from that and take the picture from that and, and I'll come back in an hour and see what you can do with that just to make that work. And I had put them together and with some music, and suddenly it felt like I had elevated the material that he shot to another level. And the storytelling just became so much better visually, audio-wise. And it was telling the story he had wanted to tell, but in, in a way that I had found on my own. And I thought, that's what this is about. This is interesting. To take something that's just face value and to put putting them together in a way that made things elevate to another level and to tell a story. That was a beautiful visual story. And so at that point I remember thinking, this is, this is really cool. This is what I wanna do.

Craig: 15:28

That's beautiful.

Debra: 15:29

Something about it that was so wonderful. And then I went on to win an award, a Cable Ace Award, for editing that film. And then at the end of that ceremony, Jon came up to me and said, I'm gonna do a feature at Universal, it's called Fried Green Tomatoes. And I'd love you to edit that. So we went on to begin my career as a feature film editor, which was great.

Maury: 15:47

How much is your experience or training or practice as a painter? Is it a conscious thing sort of as you're putting the editing together? Could you feel like you were, how to ask this, like from painting, do those two mix in your mind as you're doing it?

Debra: 16:00

Kind of, it's an impressionistic um, medium. I feel like film is very impressionistic obviously you have audio to work with too. You know, not just visuals, but with the visuals. You can tell so much of a story just by the order those visuals go in, and so it's very similar and, and composition matters and what's in the frame and the foreground background. I think all of that came from me being, being very visual and, and able to speak well visually instead of verbally. I was never a verbal kid. It's a very interesting thing. You meet people who are so good with their words and tell stories well that way, but that's not me. I knew always that I could take images and the images together in a certain order would tell the story better. Yes, it's related, I think, to the painting.'cause I developed that skill early as a kid.

Craig: 16:46

What about like genre? I remember like that first Austin Powers movie. I mean, that's one of the funniest movies ever. Do you think of yourself in terms of a genre or do you think of yourself in terms of, no, my job is to help a director tell whatever story it is.

Debra: 17:01

No, I really feel like I can do any genre, but you do get pigeonholed. But I don't mind being pigeonholed as a comedy editor. I enjoy comedy. I was raised in a family that told jokes all the time. My dad's a dentist and he had people, in the chair, and he was always just telling them jokes the whole time. So I'm used to, in fact, I can't even go to a doctor now unless they're a funny doctor. What's wrong with you? You don't make jokes about what's going on here. And That's just me and what my life is like. So I mean, once I got involved in comedy, I mean, I like drama too, and, and Fried Green Tomatoes is a dramatic film also, and I don't mind doing that. I just like the everyday living with a comedy is so much fun and to make people laugh, it's great to make people laugh. and I found that once we started the process of previewing and seeing people laugh at just the way you've put something together is so great.

Craig: 17:49

Oh, that must be fantastic.

Debra: 17:52

That's the way I'm pigeonholed as a director also, but I don't mind it because I like, you know, making people laugh and it's just fun to, to work in comedy. It's just great. It's a great way to spend your day.

Maury: 18:01

As long as I've been in the business and it's been a while now, I'm embarrassed to say how long it's taken me to appreciate the value. Isn't even a strong enough word of an editor that that piece of, and I loved how you put it. There was the writing, the shooting, and then the editing. Finally after shadowing some directors and watching directors cut in their heads and seeing the value of that, but the way you can change a story, elevate a story, yeah, I'm embarrassed to admit it took me long to appreciate how amazing it is, what a good editor can do.

Debra: 18:31

It's sadly such an underappreciated job in the film industry. They say, historically that the editors were supposed to line up with the directors and be in the DGA, but they decided to go with IATSE. Instead and be with the teamsters, which is a big mistake because editors are storytellers and they do, they are the next phase of writers, directors, and editors make the film. You're right, it's a very underappreciated group of storytellers. Really.

Maury: 18:56

You can take bad footage, mediocre to bad footage, and change it into something that's a whole new vision.

Craig: 19:03

But what's fascinating, I think from the outside is like Maury. You show up to shoot a scene, and Debra might not start working on that scene for months and months and months. There's a lot of space in between when you work, and then when you work. Is that true?

Debra: 19:19

Sometimes it's the next day. They shoot something, the next day, I see it it's called dailies. They come to me and I start looking at the footage. you're right, it's not refined until months and months down the road. It's refined, and refined, and refined, and refined. Eventually becomes the scene that it is or is not in the film at all sometimes, that takes a while, that process. And it should take a while. We should never, hurry the process either. That's part of the problem, is that sometimes these schedules are so tight, you don't really have time to really live with the material And make it the best that it can be. And that's why, we start adding, getting into the point of first there's the director's cut, and then there's the producers, then there's the studio. You have to go through all those levels of people to react to it. But maybe when it's a tightened, shortened schedule, it gets hairy and crazy to just finish a film.

Craig: 20:00

So what about that? When you're in the midst of it, In a general sense, do you know when you're working on something good?

Debra: 20:07

Sometimes you have no idea, and sometimes you think it's amazing. Like It's, very difficult to tell. It's not some, it's like, it's like Maury for you on set. Like sometimes people think this is the best stuff I've ever read or I've worked on, and suddenly it's nothing. It becomes nothing. And then other stuff that you, you know, work on and you, and you didn't, you thought it was kind of good. It When it becomes a whole and becomes finished, it becomes something better than it was on the page. And that's really why the industry is so crazy because no one can guess. If we all could, we'd be so wealthy, you know?

Craig: 20:36

Right. It's hard to make something good.

Debra: 20:38

I mean, I just worked on Barbie and we knew that it was an IP, but honestly did not know how many people would come because it's really, is it for little girls? No, not really. Is it for older women? Yes, probably. But is it for girl, girls in their twenties. turned out there's something for everybody in the film, which, which added to,

Craig: 20:57

Wait, Wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on, newsflash. Did you edit Barbie?

Debra: 21:00

Yeah, I worked in Barbie for nine weeks at the beginning of this year.

Craig: 21:03

Are you kidding me? That movie is so fantastic. It is so great. Congratulations!

Debra: 21:08

Thanks!

Craig: 21:09

That, is so exciting. I didn't even know that. that wasn't even on the page.

Debra: 21:12

No, It's not on the page.

Craig: 21:13

Oh, you're full of surprises.

Maury: 21:14

My wife works at Mattel she's going to be very excited. That is a film that blows me away, get a little tongue tied. You said you were nervous a little bit at the beginning of this podcast. I think it took me a little while to realize, Debra, that I'm a little nervous too, actually talking to you. Just so you know, just so you know. Which is excitement. That movie, that movie... I never want to spoil a movie for someone, but that was a movie, which I think is a testament to it of really wanting to, let everyone have their own experience with it.

Debra: 21:40

Yeah, for sure! That's why I say the reason it's so successful, I believe, is'cause there's something there for everybody. There's a little something in there that everyone can hook onto. It grew into its own thing, it just became what it was. And there's a, huge audience for it, which is amazing and in many countries and many languages.

Craig: 21:55

Wait, so I got distracted when you said the Barbie word, and then I blacked out, and I didn't hear anything you said? Because I'm not, I'm

Maury: 22:02

He does, he does this Debra every once in a while, don't worry about it.

Craig: 22:05

I do blackout. Hang on! What was your point after you said the Barbie word and I blacked out? Was it that you were saying you didn't know how big it would be?

Debra: 22:13

At first surprise. And then I went, oh, of course, once I, once I thought about it for a second, I went, yes.'cause we, even when we were previewing the film, people would line up for hours ahead to see, cause they wanted to see it. So it has a built-in audience, it has a built-in who wanna see, they have it has the wanna see, but if you don't deliver on wanna see, then no one's going to keep coming. So it actually delivers on that level too. yeah.

Craig: 22:35

That's exciting.

Maury: 22:35

I'd like to sidetrack a little bit, cause this is something that I think we're trying to, I always want to remember to do. And we've talked a little bit about your painting because we're going to have invite you to be on the podcast because we know you as this, your resumes and editor is incredible, but what I'm really interested to about people are what are the other things that influence them, other hobbies, other things where they've put in time and effort, passions in their lives that, maybe affect their day job. So I'm wondering if there's things like that, whether it's the photography or the painting you keep doing.

Debra: 23:04

I was thinking of that, because I grew as growing up. I did painting and I played the piano, did music and all those are really important to an editor.'cause you work in sound, you work in pictures. As a little kid, used to rearrange the furniture all the time. In fact, I wanted to be an interior designer. I wanted to be somebody who, redid rooms and, and I love, it's home, it's a hobby too. It's, almost a problem. I'm constantly redoing some part of our house visually because, and I've known directors and other people in the business who have that same talent. It's something about redoing something or looking at something from a different perspective. That's really helped my editing career a lot. If, you look at, you can do it with any, anything. You can do it with your life. You can do it with a room of furniture. You can do it the pictures on the, the words on the computer, the pictures that you are in your photo album. It's the same thing. It's looking at something from a different perspective you've been looking at. You could just take them out, throw'em on the floor in a different order. Put'em together and they would, they would be different. And I think that helps you proceed, go forward and find other ways through things. And I think that's one of the things you're talking about is what in my life also helped me become a master at this?

Craig: 24:11

Hmm. That's fascinating. You know, one thing I wanted to say, Maury, that, and Deb, I'd love to have you riff on this a little bit. We had another guest that was similar, Deb, and I mentioned this to you, that you also have a unique job. And a unique skill set and unique mastery because it's not telling your story. It's like somebody else upstream, whoever has a story that has been hatched, and then they bring it to you. And in a way, your job is to help them. Tell their story.

Debra: 24:42

As an editor, I said before you work for the director. So in that case, as the, as the editor of the film, you're trying to help that director tell the story that they wanna tell. There's the writer who wrote the story, but then the director realizes it visually and then you take it with him and it becomes another entity. And so that all the, all the while you're working on a film, you're helping somebody tell the story they wanna tell. It's not, it's not the version I want, I mean, I have an opinion about what I think plays, but I always frame it within the, in the idea of this is the story they wanted to tell. This is the story they had set out to tell and how to get that across in a more succinct. More interesting. A better way of doing the same thing they're trying to do.

Craig: 25:22

And how do you do that in the moment? You might be master of rearranging things, but in a moment, how do I stay focused on helping them tell their story and not make this what I think the scene should be, but what I think they think it should be?

Debra: 25:36

Because what I, what I, often say is, what would we like this to be like? Sometimes you have to approach the material as if you're looking at it from their perspective and you say to them, okay, in a perfect world, what were you trying to communicate here? Then you go, oh, oh, I see you're trying to tell that story. Well, You're not exactly telling that story. If we put these in this order, or if I use this voice first, and then we use these images, or we say titles here because we need to know where we are. Depends on what part of the story you're telling or where you're working. Like for example, when you work on a story, the beginning, the middle, and end. Sometimes the setup is not quite clear enough. Sometimes it's the middle of the movie that gets a little muddled, and sometimes it's the end. You're not sending'em out with the right message. So you look at each section of the film and say, okay, how are we gonna be able to tell the story? You wanna tell, but in a clear, easier way? Or is the complication that. you're trying to come across the point of the story? Like, Is it complicated because you want it to be that way and that you're trying to get them confused or send them that direction?'cause if I take my perspective on it, that's a different perspective and that's where the director role comes in. So if I'm gonna direct a film, I'm gonna take somebody's words off a page and decide this is the perspective I want to tell the story from. And then I have an editor help me do that. Once they see the footage, I'll, I'll say to them, oh, that's an interesting way of saying the same thing that I was gonna say. And I've had directors say that to me many times. Oh, that's an interesting way. Telling that joke. I've never thought of telling that joke that way or, or telling that story that way.

Craig: 27:10

You mentioned, one with Seth MacFarlane. Tell us about the joke thing.

Debra: 27:14

I did, it was just when I first started working for him, it, it often happens with people that I work with. They think that I'm coming in as a messenger with the studio notes, so sometimes they think I'm coming in with an agenda. But what the studio has figured out, and most of the studio people I work with have figured out is that if they let me go in on my own and just start saying my opinion it's worth showing and the filmmakers are interested in hearing it. So when I sat down with Seth McFarlane, he was looking, he goes, I think I just need to look at these jokes a couple times.'cause I'm not sure how you came up with these ideas. Like he and his way had the only way to tell the joke was one way. And once I showed him another way to tell the same joke, he was like, that's amazing. I hadn't thought of that. So it was very interesting to sit with somebody and I also think it's very interesting to be with comedians because they do have a very strong perspective on the world. But then once you show them another way to say the joke, they're like, oh, that's funny too. You know, It's, it's interesting because you don't wanna upstage anybody. You're not there to upstage anybody either. You're just there to show'em an alternate and another way to, to do the same joke. It's very fun.

Maury: 28:16

I, that's sort of, I was thinking about, picking battles, when do you, have you ever put your foot down and said, no, this is really it?

Debra: 28:23

It's not really my job to do that. I'm there to show alternatives and give, give lots of options. I call it options and show them options and say well, if that isn't working for you, then let's try another version. And sometimes those jokes don't work. You go to a preview and you see it and it doesn't quite work. You go, let's go back to the drawing board and try it another way. What's interesting about working with Sacha Baron Cohen, who I collaborate quite a bit with, is that Sacha loves the comedy, the science of comedy. He loves to take all the data that we find out at each of the screenings and put the jokes up against each other and go the time we played it with this crowd in this version, it got the best score. So let's take that joke version, put it with the next joke, which was from this other screening, and we start piecing things together from the best versions that he's decided because he's very serious about the comedy and how it played in the room, and he has somebody who sits in the audience and judges the jokes on a scale of one to five. She writes a number down to as to how that joke played in that room, then we take the data later and look at it in the editing room and put the film together. It's very interesting. We call it comedy science. It's really fun.

Craig: 29:25

And that's also really like a beautiful thing because that's saying, you all in the editing room may have your fancy ideas, but it's really how it plays. It's, it's what makes people laugh that will reign supreme in your choices. Let's not think what we think's funny. It's what do they, what will give them the best experience. And we're going to put that together. And that's, that's, cool. I think that's super cool.

Debra: 29:48

It's really important. So previewing process is very important to comedies. You can be arrogant about your comedy, but in the end, if nobody's laughing at the joke.

Craig: 29:55

How funny is it? Debra, when you're working on a project, it's getting stressful, the deadline's coming, and you're blocked how do you find your skills in unblocking and navigating a tight situation?

Debra: 30:10

That's interesting because what I usually do, and it'll come to trust, is to do some, do a version of something. Leave it alone. Go home, go to bed, and wake up in, I usually wake up in the middle of the night and then I have a, a revelation about how to fix it, write it down, come back to the office, fix it, and then it's fixed. It's something that comes to me and I trust that now first you're like, oh, I don't know. It makes you so anxious that you're not sure you're gonna be able to solve a problem. But honestly, there's always an answer, and often it comes to me at the time when your head, my mind is resting or, or not focused on the problem. That hard thing where you're really focused on something and sometimes the answer isn't coming, mostly because you're so focused on it. So sometimes just letting it go or going for a walk or even going to bed and waking up will help me solve a problem, especially with something creative like that.

Craig: 30:55

I was going to say real quick before we move off of this incredible resume here, what are your, what are the top three things you're most proud of when you think that you've worked on?

Debra: 31:03

Let's see, well definitely Fried Green Tomatoes. Probably Heatwave is up there at the top too, but also, but I would say I love the Hangover. And the Hangover was such a great film to be part of I mean, it's, it's a classic forever.

Craig: 31:16

Hey, by the way, Debra, I do have some crossover. I was at the actual bachelor party that became the story. There's our crossover right there. Ture story folks. I went on that, bachelor party where we lost the guy who was a movie producer and that is the origin of the movie. That Debra edited. So I was there at the beginning. You were there at the end.

Maury: 31:38

That's a whole other podcast.

Craig: 31:40

Yeah. Debra, you can interview me for that podcast.

Maury: 31:42

Yeah, that's going to be, that's next, next week's episode. Debra. I think it's hard. It's hard for us to say, oh, I'm a master, right? One, because I think there's an ego thing there, but two, because it also doesn't, maybe there are moments where we feel mastery and we can see that and the value, but then it's always changing and growing and there's more. But I, I would think that maybe you'd work with some people that you would deem masters.

Debra: 32:04

Yeah, there's directors that I've worked with that I, that I think are brilliant directors. I've worked with a lot of really amazing people. I worked with Jay Roach and, Jon Avnet's amazing. I worked with Todd Phillips. He's very, very smart director. They're just very, very intelligent, sharp, people who are constantly focused and working and you learn so much from working with the people like that.

Craig: 32:24

What are the characteristics of those people? Like what do they possess that makes that word fit for them?

Debra: 32:30

It's kind of individual, I think. They are people who are focused and they're very driven and all of those characteristics, but they're also creative, interesting, people that are some verbal, some visual, some each have all their own different traits. And those sort of come out in the films that some are comedians, some aren't, and that comes out in their films. You can see the style that they lean towards. Jay Roach is funny because he's political and he's a comedian too. He is funny and he has, so he is, he's often blending those two things. In his films or, or going one direction or the other. But you can see each of them have their own styles and that's, what makes them unique.

Maury: 33:06

Debra, you're starting to, starting to direct. Is that new? And if you always wanted to do that, and I know sort of in Hollywood, there's often the, I came to do this thing, but I ended up doing this thing and, we follow it as we go. And that's why the stories here are amazing. Have you always wanted to direct?

Debra: 33:22

I have, I've always wanted to direct and I always thought I've been so good at helping other people tell their stories. Is there a version of me doing that on my own? I really just wasn't given the opportunities and thought I have to, now I have to make that opportunity for myself. And that is part of what directing is, is making those opportunities happen. It's different than editing. Editing. You're hired to do something, directors have to go out there and get the project, find it and make it happen. Find a producer to help you make it happen, to find the money to get it done. And so it's a different kind of skillset that I hadn't really worked in. But then in the last 10 years, I learned it. And have done it and then actually got a chance to direct a film in 2020 in the middle of the pandemic, which is even crazier. We went to Oklahoma, which is even weirder. It was the election year and we went to Oklahoma and shot a film in 20 days with Eva Longoria and Matt Walsh. It's called Unplugging, if you wanna see it on Hulu. It's very funny. a couple that go away for the weekend without their phones and try to unplug and get back to each other.

Craig: 34:17

Hahaha, I love it.

Debra: 34:19

And so I got the opportunity to direct that film and it was so fun and so great, so I really wanna do it again. But it is like a very special opportunity to get, to be able to do that in this town especially. It's just, it's a hard thing because there's a lot of directors And there are a lot of storytellers out there who wanna tell stories. In a different way, it's hard to get those jobs, it's a difficult thing to do, but I'm trying, I'm working on it. And plus for women, they're giving us opportunities now, which is great. I have a lot more opportunities to be did before, so that's helpful.

Craig: 34:46

Alright, so in your opinion, so now if we move away from, from you as the master, which we think you are, which I think you are. We like to ask, do you think anybody can achieve mastery? Is it mastery something that people have in them innately? Or is mastery something that can be acquired?

Debra: 35:05

My opinion is that you start with something that you're talented at, but I think it requires hard work, which I always say work begets more work so just keep working, and more work will come your way. And the more you work, the more hours you put in, the better you'll get at whatever it is you're trying to do. And then I think it is true that based on the talent that you're born with, but I also think that you're constantly learning from others if you're not willing to learn and keep learning and being aware of what's going on around you and seeing the, the advances of your job and your technique, your style, whatever's happening in the world that you're in, then you're gonna be stuck and you're not gonna continue to be a master at what you I don't, I don't believe that's possible.

Maury: 35:46

Do you have a film or something that you look towards to be your muse or your inspiration or?

Debra: 35:52

It depends on what I'm working on. Like right now I'm trying to direct five different projects. I have five different scripts that I'm juggling to get actors on and financing for, and you know, it's all that tough game of, you have to be a producer also. But I work with producers for sure. But each film then has its own style and that I think it can lean towards. So I, I have specific stuff and each project is that way too. If I'm editing, then you are working towards whatever that director's thought that film is supposed to be like, or, they're trying to make it similar to. just hard to be general.

Maury: 36:24

Yeah. that makes sense. What you're doing will be a certain inspiration. Of course.

Debra: 36:27

Yeah, exactly. I could say I love the Martin Scorsese films and I always wanna make a film like that, so that could be something, or, you know, filmmakers that I like, but it's always, you know, or, or various filmmakers that I like. But yeah.

Maury: 36:40

Yeah.

Craig: 36:41

What we've learned from people listening to the podcast is they love something they can take away from it. Into their own life. And you've mentioned a couple things here, but I'm wondering do you see an application for all of us?

Debra: 36:56

I absolutely do. I absolutely think that if you're, let's say you're helping a friend through a problem or a situation, coming at it from a different perspective because you're not in, it always helps solve the problem. and I think that if everyone has the ability and it's not easy to do, to step back and say in a perfect world, what would I want this to be? Or what, what I, what would I really? hope this to be like? Or to say if this was a different situation, what could I, what could it be? Or if I was to attack it from a different angle. So it's always constantly looking at things from a different perspective, and that helps to reach out to other people that helps you communicate with other people and say, hey, maybe you'll look at my thing for me and help me get through this problem or in life, in or in work, or whatever you're jammed up in. And that is, the way that I bring something to, each situation is that not just look at it from where you are, from maybe from where you're sitting or from where you're sitting, it really helps you get through things.

Craig: 37:51

And also, I mean, it's interesting. I've done some editing. I understand the basics of editing is, they're different components. Like you said, there's different shots and there's audio one and two and three, and there's, this and that and to deconstruct something into its elements, look at it a different way, and rebuild it. Like, you're saying, can produce a different result, like when we all feel stuck in our lives, or stuck in a relationship, or stuck in a career, if you distill out the elements, look at them, and rebuild them a different way, you're telling the joke, in a way that the comedian never thought of.

Debra: 38:24

Yeah. I always say things have to earn their way in. If you took everything out and decided only the crucial things could come in or be part of what you're working on, I often start with the scene that way, especially if something's already been cut. I start with this idea idea idea of like, what could I just keep the simplest form of it in what, what has to be there? And then the added stuff, you start to go maybe I like this. You start to decipher why stuff is in. So it really helps to take, to say to something, just to keep the, the most important thing in, not the junk, not the extra stuff, you know?

Maury: 38:57

I love that.

Craig: 38:58

That does feel like a universal life strategy right there. What must be in, we can complicate everything by putting too much in, can't we?

Maury: 39:06

You have the instinct sometimes that you need to blow everything up too. And there's a shakeup that's valuable, but no, there's still going to be some essential pieces on which you hang.

Debra: 39:15

Go into your closet and just take out all the stuff doesn't really matter and just pick a few things and start with those. You can do it with anything, any room, any place,

Craig: 39:23

Right?

Debra: 39:23

your own life. You can just do it with that start over.

Maury: 39:26

That's great.

Craig: 39:26

George Carlin had that bit about stuff. I always think about your stuff, our stuff, your stuff, my stuff, all the stuff in the garage. You can't let go of your stuff.

Debra: 39:35

That's what drives my family crazy.'cause when I'm not editing, I'm doing it around the house. I'm always like editing this drawer, that closet, this piece of this person's room, that room. What can we redo in the house? My husband drives him crazy.

Craig: 39:46

That's the way your brain works is to see something and then see it a different way and break it down and build it back up. Now knowing you, that makes sense to me.

Debra: 39:55

It never hurts. It's the same elements. They're still there. That's what's hard to understand sometimes for the directors that you work with, because when I work with the director, they think once it's out, it's out. No, that's not true at all. It can come right back!

Craig: 40:06

Okay. Last big question. In your opinion, what are the three keys to mastery?

Debra: 40:12

Okay, so the three keys to mastery are: work hard, use what you know and love, and keep learning others.

Craig: 40:20

Debra. I think you're a master. I think you didn't know it, but I think you are. I applaud you for coming on. I know you were somebody who's like your work is about helping somebody else, but you have such a great smile and you, you clearly have a great joy and happiness about who you are, the work you do, how you get to spend your time. And It's. just awesome to be a part of, you know, it's, you've made me laugh. I've laughed my ass off some of these movies. Thank you the jokes. On behalf of millions of people laughing their ass off because of you, we appreciate it because I love a good comedy and you are great at this. And I'm so happy to see you smile when you talk about it because you should. I don't work in Hollywood anymore. I left a long time ago, but, I'm putting all of my positive mojo right now that Maury Sterling and Debra Neil-Fisher work together. I'm putting this together in my head right now. I'm making a project. My powers of magic are fairly low, but I do want you to know if you feel something, that's what I'm doing right now. I'm, putting it

Maury: 41:25

I don't know. I, Debra, I don't

Craig: 41:26

Look, at these fingers.

Maury: 41:27

strange. I don't know if I actually

Debra: 41:28

I'm buying. It. I'm buying. It. Feels good.

Maury: 41:30

I'll buy in too.

Debra: 41:31

Sounds great.

Maury: 41:32

Good.

Craig: 41:32

Debra, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Everyday Masters. We adore you. Thank you for all the laughs, all the wonderful work. How was it? Was it like being in your dad's dentist chair?

Debra: 41:43

No, not at all. No, not at all. It's great. It's very enjoyable. You got me relaxed really fast. Thank you.

Craig: 41:48

And I hope to see you again, in person sometime soon.

Maury: 41:51

Thanks for making the time. it was fantastic!

Debra: 41:53

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's really fun. I enjoy it a lot. for having me on you guys!

Craig: 42:02

Okay. Maury. Debra Neil-Fisher my mind, clear master of editing feature films. When I think about those films, I think about like the hangover films and the Austin Power films, I think about all the laughs that she has delivered and now really understanding how she contributes and participates all that kind of stuff, What a cool thing. And then, oh, by the way, she drops. Oh yeah. And I, And I worked on Barbie, like wasn't even in the list of things I was looking at.

Maury: 42:32

Yeah, no, I know and not to be argumentative, but to argue with you uh, not even really argue with you.

Craig: 42:38

How not be me and against me? Are you arguing against me or with me? If you're arguing with me, doesn't that mean you're not arguing?

Maury: 42:45

I'm arguing against you. Well, No, this thing of like,'cause'cause I think you have a tendency to, to want to say yes master and I'm finding I have a tendency to go well, but if they don't say it, then, this concept of what is, how can she not be? But she also doesn't feel like she's there yet? know, One of the last components of her three things about mastery is it's that piece of you still stay curious and open to learning. Like you, you never arrive. And I think we've talked about that many, many times now of, so from the outside we can go, yeah, come on. Are you kidding me? You're, this is, incredible. But that internal thing of her even being a little, like why, why am I gonna do this podcast with these two weird people? I don't know.

Craig: 43:26

Speak for yourself.

Maury: 43:26

No, I, I was speaking for both of us.

Craig: 43:28

Okay. My Wrapper-Upper, kind of like the Eric Bailey interview. I am realizing there are people that have mastery. In helping other people express themselves, like we met Eric Bailey and he really sees his role as being somebody to remove obstacles and free up an artist, a musician in that case to be as creative as possible. And then we meet Debra. She is very much the same thing. She is very much in service to, for the most part, she now has been a director, but a lot of her career has been helping somebody else tell their story, that's a really neat thing to think about. She doesn't sit there saying, Hey, what do I think I want to do in this moment? She sits with the director and these other folks and says, what is your vision? Tell me what you are trying to communicate. She could sometimes say, Hey, I tried this a few different ways. Which one helps you tell what you're trying to say? But it's really in service to somebody else. And, I am struck by that there's a huge humility and there's a huge sense in knowing your spot in the bigger machine, if you will, or the bigger production, which is like, my role here is to help you do that. So that, that's really my takeaway and I'm, I find it exciting that we've, it's come up more than once in these interviews. What about you?

Maury: 44:47

I'm gonna go spiritual on it in the sense of, she talked about editing her own, like recreating and, redoing her closets, her home. She's in a kind of, in a constant state of rearrangement. And how that creates a life creates a different story and how you can be, it was, there was something to that, that that's not what I do. I sort of like to get everything set and then leave it there. I guess that really makes me think I'm, I'm thinking about in sort of spiritual terms and meaning like Who's my inner editor, you know, that people talk about and who's editing my life? Do I have an editor who's trying to really tell a great story? Or do I have an editor who's trying to tell sort of an awful story? Taking that, viewpoint on and it also just from, I felt naive in a way of re-app appreciating the nature of filmmaking and just how important the editor is. Assembling this massive amount of information into the story that really works and, and sort of the science of filmmaking. She was wonderful. And just to come back to her, three components of mastery: work hard, use what you know and love and, keep learning from others. Just really simple and really clear, especially use what you know and love, like start there and then grow from that.

Craig: 45:57

I need to circle back and amplify that one idea.'cause I think we did ask about something people could into their own lives. And I have thought about it since meeting Debra and talking to her is, when one is stuck, break the situation down to its essential components. Then add the things back in. Add back in what must be back in. And so, you know, you and I like to talk spiritual life, parenting career, whatever that approach when one is stuck does feel like a high level way to have a different perspective, look it a different way, but just add back the essential elements first. That is a, pretty cool life hack in a way from a, from a Hollywood movie editor.

Maury: 46:41

Yup.

Craig: 46:41

All right, my brother. Wonderful episode. You're a wonderful human and your hair is just, a phenomenon of follicle ness. I like that. That's like your album cover right there. Listeners, you can't see it, but it's just Maury's spiky hair with a light that looks like a sun, and I call it Hair Sun"..All right, everybody, we will see you next time on Everyday...

Maury: 47:06

Masters.

Craig: 47:10

Okay. Uh, My stop. Please stop coughing when No, you catching, you're ruining my take.

Maury: 47:16

But are you catching that on the, are you catching that, is that, I mean, is that, are you catching that on the mic when I cough?

Craig: 47:21

Yeah. When you make noise outta your body and there's a microphone, it catches it. Yeah.

Maury: 47:26

Okay. You go.

Craig: 47:26

Any, any noises coming outta your face hole? Are you gonna get caught?

Maury: 47:30

Oh

Craig: 47:31

Yeah. So if you think thoughts, they won't get caught unless you. Unless you put wind behind your vocal cords.

Maury: 47:37

Okay.

Craig: 47:38

Cool? We clear on that? Copy. Wait, I wanna show you something real quick. You're gonna find this fun. What happens if I just take this off? What Fan, fan, Fan, fan, fan, fan. Feeling the doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Okay, check it out.